Graham Daniels:

Jonno, welcome to the Christians in Sport Podcast. We ask the same question, first question every time, so here it is. What does it mean for you to have your sport, your work, and your faith connected to play connected?

Michael Johnson:

It means everything done in terms of who I am as an individual, and if I have to be true to me, which I've always been, then, for me, my faith has to be upfront and foremost, and that's more in an authentic way in terms of how you carry yourself, the character, your behaviors. And so when I look at my career and where we are now, I don't do coincidences, I don't do, "Oh, this is by chance." "Oh, it's..." That I always think there's a rationale and there's a purpose for everything, and I understand my purpose, and my purpose is all about God. I'm a God-fearing man, and my life revolves around Him. And so when these kind of opportunities to come and work at your Englands, your Guyanas, your Derbys, wherever it may be, I'm very thankful. But I also know it's not just about the sport I play. We're using the sport to really touch people's lives.

Graham Daniels:

You've managed that for many years, and the balancing act in what we might call a secular culture of having a Christian faith and being thoroughly engaged in that culture in professional football is a hallmark of yours. Let's get specific straight away. Here we are on a wet morning that's in St. George's Park and you've just flown in. I say, "Oh, where were you yesterday then, Jonno? He said, "Oh, I've just flown in from Geneva." So are you flown in from two days on the coaching, mentoring on the masters for international players? And I think I'm right in saying, to be on that course, a player has to have played international football and played in the top league in his country., Now without betraying too many confidences, give us a feel of that part of your day job as your consultancy for UEFA. What were you doing?

Michael Johnson:

It's been amazing. So first and foremost, they were graduating, so it's the UEFA a number three, I was number two. And you're right, it was international players, but you've had to play it at the top level in your country. So there's a certain criteria which brings a lot of well-known footballers from the male and female game together, names like Gilberto Silva and Kaka just graduated, Arshavin, Youri Djorkaeff.

So there's some really big names. So the network is growing and growing every year. And obviously for me to be part of that, not only am I humbled, but I'm really thankful to God. Especially where you're coming from and to be standing amongst your peers and not only graduating, but in this week being able to mentor and give back in terms of the experiences, the opportunities for some of those that have just graduated. There's a certain anxiety about what the future might bring. And so it's great with my experiences to go and speak to them and talk to them about how this potentially could open doors and next steps. So yeah, you're right. I've just literally flown in and it's been an amazing 48 hours.

Graham Daniels:

Interesting. On that front for me, Jono, because though you have an incredible job in England football, which you'll explore in this. And though you have these significant consultancies, like this UEFA for one and FIFA, we've interviewed on previous occasions and you've indicated that some of the hallmarks of racism in professional football, you think in some ways, restricted a career of a Black player who's got the capacity to do what you're doing now. I don't necessarily need to go back and dig all of that out with you, but in hindsight now in the roles that you're in, how do you perceive that situation these days in football?

Michael Johnson:

It's improving. It's definitely improving slowly. There's discussions around the world, there's discussions here at the FA this week, we heard about the FA diversity code, there's Premier League initiatives. And what I would say, it's still very slow. You look at the management level now we're still at around 4% and you look. At senior leadership, that's 2%. And when you consider that 44% of players playing through all the leagues in England, from the Premier League down to League Two is in and around 44%, then you see the disparity, you see the massive drop-off. And we have to find out why. And that's where I still see there's work to be done if we want a game that is really truly reflective of modern day Great Britain and reflective of the industry that we all love and work in.

Graham Daniels:

So would it be fair to say that you're seeing it international level, at England level, significant development and ownership of this responsibility to bring people through to leadership, but it may not yet have... The rubber hasn't hit the road in the day-to-day game, as it were, in clubs?

Michael Johnson:

Yeah, absolutely. I think whilst FA are doing some really great initiatives around it, I still think there's more work and more real purpose, and that bullseye needs to be hit rather than the sort of work that we do what floats in and around it, but we're not quite hitting the bullseye. And I think it's really important to learn from the experiences of so many managers of color, coaches of color, players that have come out that have tried to aspire to be where they've wanted to be, but for some reason have not quite got there, have not felt like the industry wants them to get there. How can we learn from those experiences to better be placed next time in terms of making sure that the players that are playing the game now don't have the experiences that others have had?

Graham Daniels:

Certainly. Dion Dublin, who's on in my other role, as it were, in life with Cambridge United, Dion's on the board with us. And actually, well, first and foremost, his sheer ability, his conceptual abilities, incisive ability to understand the business of football is huge. He's a board member and a huge part of that board, leader of it. But is insight into the issues that restrict players as they move into management as senior positions is significant. Well, what's encouraging for us in this podcast, Jonno, is the fact that you've been outspoken on these issues, but in such a way that it's elegant and dignified and classy. And you've spoken from increasingly from positions of authority within the game. It's a wonderful thing to see. Can we go to the day job then from there? So good, in from Geneva, crazy conversations with all sorts of people. Just as one throwback to that, I don't need the exact details of a Kaka conversation, but what does it look like to be mentoring world class players as they transition from the game? Give us a story that's anonymous of the kind of thing you'd be doing.

Michael Johnson:

And you're right, there are players that have won World Cups and European Championships, and some of these players will come and ask about my experiences, having retired from the game literally a decade ago now. And so there's quite a bit of knowledge in there. And so what you try and do is help them in terms of, what does the future look like? Because some of them now are just coming through their master's degree, which is a huge achievement for some of them. And some of them, the road might not be as smooth, given their names, given their history as what they may think it should be.

And so it's preparing them for that life after football and preparing them that they must keep moving, they must keep going to see managers, coaches that they know, must keep learning and developing themselves, because it may not be, as they think, "I'm going to get a role next week or the next two months." And sometimes players get despondent during that journey between finishing and acquiring a role. So it's just using those experiences and those contacts and networks to keep them on that real road to navigate them to the next destination, which hopefully will be a sporting director role or leadership role somewhere within the sport that they love.

Graham Daniels:

For a supporter watching this, we have a mixture. Lots of pros watch this, but competitive players watch it and supporters watch it. And of course, you know very well, that as somebody who's a supporter listening or watching this is saying, "What? Somebody of that stature, that fame, that importance, actually nervous, nervous about their job when they've earned so much money in their lives?" Speak into that, that is an issue. But people will never understand that. Why does that happen to a very famous player who's got loads of money?

Michael Johnson:

And again, it's a really good question, but once... I think my faith has really helped me to understand that if... For 90 minutes you're a footballer, but behind the 90 minutes, behind the shirt, once you take the shirt off, that person's first and foremost is a human being. And I think as human beings, we all go for emotions. And so whilst you might put that shirt on and feel like a hero and a superhero, you're going to have to take it off. And a lot of players dread the day when they have to take it off for good because they lose a lot of power that comes, is associated with that shirt. So now you're dealing with the human being, the person.

And I think it's important that we remember all the time that this person is the same as you, who has emotions, has fears, has doubts, anxiety, regardless of where we see them in terms of the financial side of the game, they still have the human feelings that go through those ranges of ups and downs. And that's where I, the course, others, will try and capture them in those ups and downs because we have some kind of understanding of what they're going to go through. And it is a real hi when you're playing but then it's low and that's where we try and help them in terms of building back up their self-confidence, their self-worth. You're not just a footballer, you have got something now to offer the world.

Graham Daniels:

Jonno, that's fascinating. The shirt analogy, brilliant. So when players have to take that shirt off for good that's a drama moment, a dramatic period in life. Straight back at you then. When you knew the shirt was coming off for good, tell us when that was and what role your alternative vision of self, your Christian faith had in this.

Michael Johnson:

It's a good question. I likened it to when you love somebody or have a real devout love and that's all you see in yourself with or to have, and then that gets ripped away from you. And I likened it to that experience, that there's nothing that you can do with your career because there comes a time and there comes an age where you're at, when it's on the, downward spiral and once that gets tugged away from you, then who are you if you don't have your faith? Because your identity is in, "I'm a footballer, this is all I've known."

Once that curtain gets drawn and it's the last time you wear that shirt, then there's a real battle about who you are now. And if you don't have a real comfortableness in who you are, for me, it was around my faith, then you go on for the next seasons, years, still defining yourself as a former footballer but you're not comfortable about, Okay, who are you though? That's in your past. Who are you now?" Because you're still attached to that Saturday afternoon, to that shirt, but you're no longer playing the sport. And so there's a real challenge issue around the identity of a football player once they're coming out the game and the comfortableness to really say, "This is me."

Graham Daniels:

In your case, in your specific case, you'd have gone through that, taking the shirt off, not just at the end of a career, of course, but times of injury or even deselection when you couldn't get in a team, which wouldn't be often, but that would've happened. Your faith in this process, give us a couple of moments then on actually coming to a faith during a playing career. Because it used to be quite unusual, it's pretty normal now in football. There's so many people of Christian faith, and indeed other faiths in professional football. The taking the shirt off part as a younger man, how did your faith emerge in professional soccer?

Michael Johnson:

I was always aware of my faith. I came from a real Christian upbringing with my grandparents, they were Pentecostal churchgoers. And as a youngster there was no, you might be going, "You are going." And that was good, but it also carried its own resentment a little bit. As I started to go through my teen years, I started to, not rebel but, "Football's on a Sunday morning, I'm going to go football now. I'm old enough, I'm not a young toddler anymore where I have to be looked after." And so I left the church environment, but I was always aware.

And then as you go through your career, you get caught up in the world. And I was around 29, 30 when I signed for Derby County. And me and somebody that we know very well, Darren Moore, I'm sure he'd be fine with me mentioning this, we roomed together. And Darren was really strong in terms of his faith and me and him would have discussions. And over the course of the seasons, those discussions really started to touch me in a way that I started to come back into the church environment. And I remember speaking to Darren, and Darren was really good in terms of helping me in the world with football, never judged me, but always used to drop a word in. And over a period of time, a couple of seasons, those words started to really take a hold and impact my life for the good. And then I decided it's time I returned back to what I knew as a toddler but had drifted away. And it was so special when I went back and gave my life to Christ again and I've never looked back since.

Graham Daniels:

The impact of that, a player like Darren Moore, now a well-known manager and a highly respected man in professional football, what strikes me is about the way you talk about Darren, and indeed what one admires in people of Christian faith throughout the game these days, is that ability to be, I don't know, I'd call it good at being normal, good at being caring, kind, generous of spirit, interested in other people more than yourself. And it's almost in that process your faith is seen but not pushed too hard. Would that be a fair reflection of an approach that you think is appropriate?

Michael Johnson:

100%. I totally would agree with that statement. I think for me, it's around your life and the way that you conduct your life, the way that you act, the way that you walk, talk, the patience that you have, the willingness to show empathy and understand and engage with others from any walk of life. And I think that there in itself has led many who I've come into touch with to say, "There's something about Michael that I'd like to explore a bit more further." And that's where potentially might be an opportunity to discuss your faith as opposed to, as we know, particularly in this environment, it might be not with the best choice for you sometimes to be ramming something down because it might be too harsh for some. But I think the way that you live, the way that you conduct your life will be evident. The Lord says, "That you will know them by their fruit." And I think that is so true in terms of the industry that we operate in. It's about more about your conduct.

Graham Daniels:

Yes. Well, with that in mind then, let's go to what we might call the day job because consultancies with UEFA and FIFA are part of your life, but the actual day-to-day job now is an absolutely fascinating one, which I think people are going to be really interested in understanding. The formal title is Engagement and Player Lead for England. And my understanding from watching you and talking to you on this is that what it looks like every day is that you're really visiting clubs all the time for the youngsters who are in the England setup, looking out for them, looking after them. Broadly speaking, that's what happens. Can you pin that down a bit for us, because it's a fascinating job, which I'm sure people wouldn't have heard about outside the professional game?

Michael Johnson:

Yes, you're right. So the role's called the Club and Player Relations Lead. So with the club, it's basically as you just mentioned, looking after our players that are in camp, who have been selected, and then going into clubs and making sure obviously when they've come into camp, the experience of them coming in is a good one, is the feedback right? But also trying to find out from the coaches or the clubs that I visit, is there any other talent within their academies that may have been missed? And some coaches will say to me, "Well, there's a good under-15 player or 17 player you fancy taking a session in the academy?" So sometimes I will deliver in the evening program to actually have a look more around talent ID, potentially it's something that we may have missed.

But then also capturing so much rich data from coaches. There's so many conversations around players, that sometime if it's not captured at certain clubs it goes missing. So how can we capture those conversation with coaches? How can we bring something from the FA in terms of a CPD opportunity? We do that much research here that there's so much we can give back to the game, and how do we then find out what's in their pathway? And so that's where the relationship with the club is now being thought of and driven by our technical director, John McDermott, and also the head of talent recruitment, which is Steve Morrow. They've got a real emphasis of improving those relationships with the clubs. Because end of the day, ultimately, England can only be England because we take the players from their clubs. So how do we embed that relationship? And it's not just about the top clubs, we're talking right the way through the perimeter of English football.

Graham Daniels:

Well again, I've got a degree of personal experience with that as a young boy in a League One set up at Cambridge who's in the pathway. And you think, "Wow, there is a depth of inquiry that's going on here and identification." How current is this? Is your role a brand new role? Did it exist before?

Michael Johnson:

No, it's really new. It's new and it's driven from both John and Steve, from their experience, particularly John's at Tottenham. He was the academy manager at Tonttenham and there was things that he says was loose in terms of the relationship between him as the Tottenham Hotspur academy manager in the FA. And there was no collection of data in terms of the conversation that all those coaches were having. The relationship wasn't quite right in terms of how we selected or deselected and how that player was left feeling. And there was no real communication with parents.

And so he said he wanted somebody to really come in and drive those discussions, try and tighten it and get those relationships a lot more firmer. So when we go back to call a player up, that player feels welcome, the family's included, the club's happy and that really bodes well for a really good player coming in and being the best version of who that person can be based on those relationships. We know the world revolves around relationships and so it's important that we really go that extra yard to make sure we cement those relationships and make sure players know that we really care for them, and clubs as well.

Graham Daniels:

You were the head coach of the 21s, that's hands-on, obviously that's in the lives of players and no doubt their mums and dads when they take the shirt off, as you put it excellently, how different is this experience now because it's far more eclectic, you're seeing more people and traveling more?

Michael Johnson:

For me, it's a wonderful experience. It's completely different from the 21s, where I was more grass in terms of a coach. But what this has gave me is another side to me, it's opened up a talent ID side, it's opened up an awareness of the pathway. I can talk now from under-15 coming in the way to under-21s coming in. And it's my job to be across that, so that when I come into a club like Cambridge, I can sit there and articulate myself about a player what's under-16, but then also have a conversation about somebody what's under-20. And talk to you about how they both found the camp. "Is that what you see when you're training these players every day? Are they comfortable because is that what these players do?"

And they're relating that to when they come in camp to see if we've actually got a player who's enjoying both sides of the coin. "If he's enjoying Cambridge and he behaves like this, but then he comes in to England, is there something that we're missing that you may be able to help me with?" And so it's really opened up a different side to me in terms of, yes, I was coaching day to day, now it's more around the talent ID, developing those real strong relationships around the game, which I find really exciting. And I do get coaching, because as I said, some clubs would go, "Why don't you just take the under-16s this afternoon or this evening, or the under-18s in the morning? Why don't you just do a CPD with all our coaches and talk about a strategy, what England researched?" And so for me, every day's a different challenge.

Graham Daniels:

On that front then let's press on your own Jamaica career and head coach in Guyana. Yeah. So as I've said earlier, your eclectic CV lends itself to so many skills that you've picked up over the years. Firstly, how did getting picked for Jamaica happen initially? Obviously somebody's spotted you and you're playing club football. How did that happen?

Michael Johnson:

It was amazing, actually. It came at a time when I realized it was never going to happen for England. As an 18-year-old, I was invited down to Lilleshall with the best of the best. That's what they called it. I think there was about 40 I players, but I never made the final cut. And so I waited and waited but never got the call. So just after the '98 World Cup, I got a call from Jamaica and they knew about my dual nationality and they said, "We've had you watched and we'd like you to come in." And of course, I jumped at the chance to realize, it's not going to happen for England, so why not have an opportunity of playing the Gold Cup, which is in the States, World Cup qualifiers, which was taking place. And I did and it was a fantastic experience to go around the world, Brazil, Mexico, play against some fabulous teams and experience international football.

Graham Daniels:

You know that period then as an 18-year-old where you're good enough to go to Lilleshall, which means you're in the top crowd and you don't make the cut. Does a scar of that remain.

Michael Johnson:

No, not really, Danno, because I think what happened after that actually really helps to get over that in terms of your own career. So you go and you get that professional contract, you move, you play in the Premier League, you then get international experiences. So that overtakes that. And I think the final one for me was, was whilst I wasn't good enough to play for England as a player, what I've now proven to myself is that you're good enough to represent England as a coach, and that's been a real cement that, "Yes, you was good enough to one day represent your country."

Graham Daniels:

Well, here's another question then along those lines, and they don't have to be yes no, and you certainly don't have to agree with me, as in the last case. Therefore, in terms of coming to a faith, a personal faith, you've grown up with one, but you came to a personal faith 29, 30, what would you say was the initial substantial impact of that, on the journey that's brought you to this point at this age? Because you were still playing at that stage. Did it, for example, has it influenced your desire to be a coach or a sporting director, how would you capture the influence of your faith on your subsequent career?

Michael Johnson:

It's been astronomical. My faith has definitely been the catalyst of where I am and who I am today, without a shadow of a doubt. There was times, Danno, when I went through not only life, but sorry, not only career, but your life being told, "It's going to be tough, for obvious reasons. You're a Black man and there's not many Black coaches and managers out there." And that was coming to a stage when I was literally coming to retire out the game. But during that time I was looking to retire out the game, I'd recently really started to hold onto my faith, as I mentioned.

And so the journey of me retiring and experiencing tough times was locked into a time when my faith was really strong. It's strong now but I was just really bedding into it. And that got me through a period where there was nothing happening, I couldn't get a managerial job, I'd been applying, couldn't get on anything, but my faith was really strong and held me firm. And Darren Moore, again, held me firm.

There was a time on my Pro License and I know he don't mind me telling, we laugh at this now, when one particular morning I was weak, and we were supposed to go to Switzerland and I said, "Mooro, I'm not going." And it was the last leg of my Pro License after 18 months, the last two months. And Mooro rang me up in Nottingham and said, "Are you not coming down?" We were supposed to have met. I said, "I'm not going anywhere this morning. What's the point?" And he literally said, "If you don't get out your bed, I'm literally going to come up to Nottingham and drag you out." Now, you don't want Darren Moore dragging you out of your bed anyway.

Graham Daniels:

He's a giant.

Michael Johnson:

So I literally said, "Ugh, I'm on my way." It's the best decision I made. Because obviously you qualify, you get through and then you go again. So basically, what I'm trying to say is without my faith, I wouldn't be stood here because I would've given in. And also, I felt the Lord lead me to something that I was enough for Him and within Him, it will open up. What I have to do is really trust Him. Trust in Him. And so in that period where there was nothing, I just continued to trust in Him and actually started to grow where I would be my own manager. I would be my own sporting director. I didn't need the industry to rubber stamp who I was because the Lord had already rubber stamped me for who I was. And within that I started to operate in a real confidence and a real energy. And I am convinced that those traits of confidence and energy and exuberance is exactly what's brought you to where you are today, where the UEFA somebody goes, "There's something about him, I need to get him involved in our organization."

Graham Daniels:

Peer support. You've mentioned Darren Moore a couple of times here. I know you were extremely good friends with the late Cyrille Regis, and to this day are very involved in the community trust, the Cyrille Regis Trust in the Midlands, through his wife, Julia, and the group there. There are a number, as I intimate earlier, compared to 20 years ago, 15 years ago, where it was slightly odd to be a Christian in the professional game. Now it's pretty normal. It's a dramatic shift in the culture at all levels of professional football now. You've supported so many of your own peers, I might say, but younger people, other coaches, right across British football, actually. Again, you don't need to name names on this because it's for them to talk about it more as a public figure on this. How important is peer support to people in professional football, professional sport when they want to be good pros and sustain their Christian faith as part and integrated to it?

Michael Johnson:

Yeah, it's something that is coming up and really prevalent now, particularly with explosion of social media as well. And I think it's important for youngsters, coaches, those just coming out the game to learn from the experiences of those that have literally trod that path and navigated that pathway. Particularly at time when, as you mentioned, the '90s and early-'2000s, it wasn't a pleasant place to be a Christian because the changes were quite harsh back then. I think what we have now is a lot more understanding, a lot more interest around personal wellbeing. And so it's okay for you now to be who you choose to be, who you want to be.

But I still think with that, there's that transition, there's that understanding and navigating the whole industry, the things that are going to be in your eye shop just because of the nature of the industry. We know that now football is something that is global. So if you play for wherever you play, you're going to be well known. With that well known becomes a lot of fame. How do you handle that as a youngster if you don't really know you and you don't really understand what you are going to be opening up? And I think this is where the experiences of those that have traveled can speak you in a real understanding, less convicted way. I think it's so important that Christians of sport, particularly the elders, actually give back to the youngsters in that way because they're going to face issues that they may not have the experiences, the tools to understand how you navigate it.

Graham Daniels:

Well, it is been quite marvelous to watch over that 20 or 30 years, many examples of what you've just described of parents who might have a child, as you were, came from a Christian home, who are hoping that when their daughter or son find themselves in these performance pathways, they're thinking, "How is my child going to balance the faith, they've grown up with the Christian faith they've grown up with, with the demands of professional sport?" And increasingly, I have no doubt you've seen this, the influence of senior players and coaches in saying, "Oh no, the world has changed. It's fine to express your faith because it's a sign of your holistic wellbeing and it's welcomed here." You must have seen that with moms and dads at times, wanting to talk to you.

Michael Johnson:

Yeah. Absolutely. It's fascinating. You mentioned that. Even recently there was a pair of what came into camp and it was great for them to have an understanding that there was somebody within the FA who they literally was like, "Oh, I've seen you on Christians in Sport." And that real comfort that came from that they saw somebody who represented them and was quite comfortable in their own shoes, and just having a conversation with them. But also then them saying, "Oh, please do speak to my youngster. It'd be great if you could share some words of wisdom with them." And for somebody to say that as a parent, saying to you, "Please..." That's a big thing. You don't just have anybody saying, "Oh, can you share into my child?" And so when you have that bestowed upon you, it's powerful.

Graham Daniels:

That takes you full circle, doesn't it? Because your parental grand parenting, Pentecostal home. And you find yourself now as a role model, a caring, kind, highly professional person at the top level of English football, able to give back across the board to others. It must be a lovely feeling.

Michael Johnson:

It's amazing.

Graham Daniels:

Before we draw to a close, Jonno, here we are recording, what, three weeks before the World Cup starts? That's [inaudible 00:36:24] here at St. George's Park for this conversation. You can't say too much, obviously, but how do you see it shaping?

Michael Johnson:

I think obviously the last few tournaments we've done really well and I'm sure Gareth and the team should be confident, we'll be confident going into this World Cup. I think for every England fan is really, really desperate for success. Everybody keeps reminding us of the 66. But for me, of course we want to win it, of course, I'd love nothing more than to win it, but you just want a team to be really representative of us as a nation, as a country, not just on the foot, but also off the field. And you want the fans also to conduct themselves in a way that is really bestowed upon what we expect. And so whilst I understand this is something we hope we win, I think for me, it's the whole piece terms of, how do we look on the world stage as a nation? How are we represented, not just by what we see on the pitch, but also that what we see off the pitch? And wherever that takes us, if that is successful, then I'd like to think we'd all be proud of that nation and that would be us.

Graham Daniels:

Super answer, Jonno. Not at all political. And for me, representative of what we've watched here at St. George's Park, the developments of the Elite Player Performance Plan over the last decade, both the desire to create players, technically better footballers, but I love the second part of the EPPP, more rounded human beings, much better cared for, more than a footballer, more than the shirt. What we've discussed today has captured that very beautifully for me and what the whole England setup looks like. Because the privilege of knowing a number of people in it, of faith, Christian faith, and those who would say they don't have Christian faith, there's a value system in place here which is excellent.

Michael Johnson:

Absolutely.

Graham Daniels:

So super capture. Well, Michael Johnson, thank you very much indeed. Pleasure, a real pleasure interviewing here today.

Michael Johnson:

Top mind, Danno.

Graham Daniels:

Thanks, Jonno.